Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago · 6 min. reading time · ~10 ·

Harvey blog
A Value Proposition

A Value Proposition


A historical review

If we can take a moment and understand, western philosophy is in chaos, as we look at politics, identity group formation and the human rights advocacy reaching far beyond the sanctity of the individual, we could recognize at its core it is man's search for meaning. The dogma of this debate is reminiscent of the church up to the 1600’s. I don’t necessarily propose an answer of how humanity should move forward but would say that at the 1600’s man separated from a belief system that has now created a vacuum that wants to fill itself.

The essence of mankind is bringing value to themselves and the culture they participate.  Value is a subjective narrative that up to the 1600’s was controlled by the church. Science did what politics couldn't do up to this point in history, they destroyed the poorly laid foundations of the church over centuries. Martin Luther saw this unwinding in its beginning and began to establish religious thought at the personal level, while later John Locke introduced a balance between science and religion, it was too late.  The tardiness was not related to the enlightenment that had pretty much established itself by his time, but it was late to save the ideals embodied in Martin Luther. The Postmodern experiment was inevitable.

From Locke forward we experienced the benefits of science much as the Romans had done in their time.  But it started a clock where successive generations were not introduced to the cultural spiritual underpinnings of the science, meaning.  Science saw this opportunity to replace the “dogma” of religion with its own. Darwin feed the prominent philosophers the guns they needed to burn religion at the stake.  Some such as Nietzsche saw this happening and posited the attitude of materialism would lead to nihilism. I don't think he missed the mark.

The proposition is afoot.

Within the 21st century we live with the Darwinian belief that each of us must take what is ours so that our evolutionary family can build itself better within successive generations.  No matter how hard we try we can't eliminate the hierarchy that prevails within such a dynamic paradigm. But enter the super hero’s to save those who have now become victims of the postmodern experiment (As i refer to it.  My diagnosis is that the cure may be successful, but the patient dies.). This is where the Nietzschean prophetic comment of nihilism being the natural evolution begins to play out.

The superheroes who are dividing us into identity groups and establishing governments pedestal as arbiter, will eventually make the meaning of life worthless.  Making the road to personal and group value almost impossible. Value will become a homogeneous conclusion of the thought police. Again not much different than the aristocracy of the church from 400 AD to 1600 AD.

I have laid forth a very subjective opinion.  My expectation is that i can be rejected out of hand or one can test my thoughts through action.  Through rediscovery of value. Start with the premise i am totally wrong, institute a blank experiment whereby you must create value in self, family/close social and community in that order.  I could offer rules of engagement but would say the only rule is, you can't give up.

The Proposition

Value can only be measured within the context of self, family/social and community.  Those terms where honor and integrity and the service to others created a sense in those who knew/know us as a “valued and trusted friend”.  I believe that value and meaning are insufferably tied to our existence. Meaning being the nebulous search while value creation defines meaning.


This leads to the ultimate question, “Can i draw value from my world with the beliefs i carry within my shadow self?” In an effort to find meaning?
Author in Source Title

We start out life in a totally dependent state where caregivers “adults” supply us with a narrative through their own existence and beliefs that bring them value.  From this narrative we step into the world with some pretty crude understandings of what value is, or how value is reflected from our activities.

Socially and professionally we also get reflected back to us the narrative of those who have been awarded some form of leadership title that may or may not be congruent with our own understanding of value.  This is the point where i believe that our naive value and chaos meet. The challenges we face in working through our own narrative of value while living in someone else’s bubble of value.

Say what you will about “religion” but i have always thought this is the epistemology of how to navigate the value statement you have with those around you.  The order chaos concept in fact is this search for value creation within a world where each of us has our own worldview of where and how to find value. Religion offers a mechanism whereby we can learn the value proposition in such a way we can be successful.  We discount these ancient stories of wisdom at the altar of our own demise.

Let’s start at the point where material value is important and where it drops you off.  Early in our adult life material things are very important. The need for independence drives our need to provide for ourselves food, clothing and shelter.  Primitive needs. If our childhood narrative, at a minimum stressed the primitive survival tactics, then we usually can accomplish the fulfillment of the primitive needs very quickly.  Before we accomplish this our value statements would read more like climbing a very physical mountain with urgency.

Once we meet this need though we no longer have this value equation driving us.  This is where we begin to ask ourselves about meaning and the values we subscribe.  The first thing we recognize when we slow down from the security of the primitive needs being met is that others are stuck in the primitive needs cyclone while others seemingly have a value set that either aligns or doesn't with our own.

We recognize these challenges as chaos.  A place where two belief systems or narratives bump into each other at a risk point.  Much like the comedy scene where both people try and get through the door at the same time and get stuck.  In the past this was met with a simple form of empathy and dialogue. Today it seems to be challenged in the arena of right and wrong.  A very fractious dialogue begins. Having the ability to sort out into various echo chambers we can find solace within our own narrative that others share within a feedback loop.  A very general statement not meant to devalue the aspect of finding folks like you, but rather to discuss the word value. Not exposing our values within our family/community of diversity will keep us rotating around a single belief that never carries us forward.

If we address value across three dimensions we could see the word from a whole new perspective.  Value for self, that helps my family derive value and family derived value assists the community in finding value.  Establishes a community belief system that trust can develop.

I am a proponent of the individuals rights to discern value for myself.  But can the individual be happy within a family or community that doesn’t derive value from the individual?
Author in Source Title

This question then creates even more chaos for ourselves as we begin to sort out our narrative of youth. Mainly because we have to confront the family/community with our own narrative and discuss the differences.

Do we abandon our own narrative and take on the family/community narrative?

Well we did this in the beginning, maybe blindly, but we did in order to get past the primitive needs.  But now we are starting to question this narrative or find our own.

Do we double down with our own and seek to get others to join our narrative?

This has some advantages on your side of the equation but offers chaos to those who have a different narrative.

Maybe we use knowledge as a source of a new narrative?

Yes we can go this route but keep in mind your own narrative is pretty well established and difficult to change.  The other issue with knowledge as a basis of a value in and of itself is not very satisfying. Knowledge has to return value back to you.  In the form of money at first but in the end it has to be more in the arena of contentment with self.

Maybe we could use philosophy as a way to engage the chaos of existence?

Philosophy is very contextual.  Meaning that when we bring forward historical philosophers into our present we are mixing two very different social/material settings and issues into something that we have to form fit into our own paradigm.

I believe that we should look at value from the perspective of the three dimensions.  First i seek value for myself and then means test it against the family/close social group and then expand that testing to the community.  This is not easy and comes with its own set of challenges, but offers up a process of value creation that we attempt to speak life into ourselves, those closest to us and then to the broader community.

This also causes something else to happen.  Some belief systems would be formed along the lines of what it means to bring value to the three different groups.  A common set of beliefs would emerge that could become the core vision of all three groups.

I would submit that you would very quickly realize that the Abrahamic story where God asked him to sacrifice his long awaited son at an alter is truly a story of chaos in creating value.  Within chaos is always an answer of value that will be provided at the right time. But we cant give up.

Amazingly this is what the Bible represents.  Thousands of years of understanding chaos and order.  Our ancestors have battled this question with deadly and life giving results.  They offer in their language a good starting point of understanding meaning through value creation.

I would challenge you to truly listen to politics, science and philosophy as it applies to meaning and notice they only offer what is wrong with society.  While pointing to some nebulous place of existence where the journey is really not mapped out clearly.  If a true effort of finding value in the three dimensions is attempted you may find that what science has presented isn't enough to find meaning or in action, value.


Randall Burns

4 years ago #30

Thanks Harvey Lloyd Yes I'm very familiar with Jung's work, amazing thinker, and like you it will take me a lifetime to try to comprehend his concepts, if I can grasp them at all but that is the "journey". Looking forward to the video, starting now but will put in my every growing "library" of material I need to go through, (I'll need a few lifetimes for that)

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #29

Randall Burns, Carl Jung was a researcher who delved into thousands of years of religious and social text to unearth the archetypes he found. I find his work interesting and wish i could better understand his writings and thoughts. One sense i get from his work is that he lifts life meaning from the ancient texts and its very raw formation of what it means to be human within humanity. https://youtu.be/3iLiKMUiyTI This is a lengthy video along with its part 2. But should you have a rainy day with nothing to do but soak up some Carl Jung JBP does a great job of illustrating his deep thoughts.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #28

I believe the thoughts of the two posts share a lot of common ground. Your post describes several thoughts concerning the self and getting our thoughts together. A young person who is breaking into this crazy world may be able to find value in self through many means. I think the disconnect for me is when we means test this value system against family and beyound to community. Our youth of today feels quite good about themselves but struggle when they begin to export these ideals, their values have created. This is not to judge the ideals themselves but more to explain some of the echo chamber challenges to self. The proposition is to take these ideals, spawned from your value set, and attempt to establsih them across the domains mentioned. Within this activity your values and more importantly your belief system will be tested. A lot of words to describe trial and error. Instead of proclamations use activity to enter into familiar domains and learn how and what fits. With each round you become wiser and your message either supports the ideal or morphs. Again a lot of words to express that humans evolve from point A-B. Thanks for bringing the two pieces together. I found yours parrelled my research findings of our ancestors, they were working on the same thoughts.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #27

“Only those that develope awareness of this dynamic may establish their own meaning and transcend. ” “Awareness of this dynamic”. It is difficult to pull from the present when we are immersed so deeply within social gerrymandering. Ian Weinberg I was offering up a solution through action, in attempting to find value across the three domains as more a wisdom seeking excersise. My thought was that if the individaul stepped back and attempted this process, they would experience the wisdom of our ancestors. Simply stated make me, my family and the community a better place. The alternative being reporting whats wrong with the domains. Thank you for taking time to offer up feedback, as usual it is insightful.

Ian Weinberg

4 years ago #26

Great post Harvey Lloyd The powers that be can never take your thoughts and beliefs away from you. Nor can they own you in any real sense. The problem arises when the individual has not established personal meaning and purpose. For here the agents of the existing paradigm will supplant their agenda such that meaning and purpose for the individual will reflect the 'values' of the collective. This latter situation represents nothing less than the abrogation of unique personal values, beliefs and meaning for those of the masses. Only those that develope awareness of this dynamic may establish their own meaning and transcend. This potential to return to personal authenticity however will be determined by intrinsic qualities usually shaped by the nature-nurture heritage.

Jerry Fletcher

4 years ago #25

Feed the Wolf.

Randall Burns

4 years ago #24

Bill King see comment #24

Randall Burns

4 years ago #23

Harvey Lloyd Here's a piece that I think is related in that maybe we have to change our paradigm in order to answer "the question"? https://www.bebee.com/producer/@randall-burns/expanding-the-paradigm-of-our-perceptions-senses-and-philosophy

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #22

Congratulations. And your final query is the question as we look at what we want within our shadow selves driving our ego.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #21

I was doing the female-vigil thing; out third grandchild was born just two hours ago - who could deny a God when you have seen and held your child? Anyhoo....the word trust comes up a lot after reading all the comments.#11 I agree with your comment that trust itself could become something we would end up taking for granted at our peril.#20 Hate to play 'devil's advocate, but rightly conveys the task put upon Abraham. Thing is, Abraham knew himself; he knew he could not hide nor deny God. We on the other hand are less certain..... If you could compare our DNA to that of Adam & Eve, it would be almost unrecognisaable. That's science and truth. Guess what I'm driving at is WHO too trust. Who's hands would you put your newborn's into if you had to?

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #20

This the passage i was receding to within the text. A story if we step back and attempt to understand its meaning for man it shows us what we are enthralled even today. Abraham was handed chaos from the God. He could have ran, hid or otherwise not faced the chaos. It was the ultimate in chaos. Abraham was handed an existential crisis and chose to do the “right” thing. Not only did he enter the chaos but was made wiser because of his follow through.This is what our ancestors are speaking through ancient texts. This style of behaviour transferred to today would state that politicians, those given great power, should attempt to enter the chaos and do the right thing for their people. We expect that in our voting processes. Most politicians cant get past the existential crisis of loosing votes or popularity. Abraham had quite a lot more to overcome and found courage in his beliefs. Abraham set a high standard for mere humans. Thanks for your comment and thoughts.

Mohammed Abdul Jawad

4 years ago #19

Harvey Lloyd Thanks for this interesting post. Perhaps, I must say here that Abraham (peace be upon him) went through the great ordeal that ended in the great triumph. When he laid his son (Ismail – peace be upon him) to sacrifice him, his Almighty Lord was pleased and ransomed Ismail with a goat sacrifice. :)

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #18

Yes this is a piece i have been contemplating its public value. It is months worth of reading and studying various concepts and specifically religions. Not necessarily my own. But the concepts that religious ancient folks brought to our understanding. The mere concept of chaos and order is a miracle into itself if we look at the people who posited these ideas. Within these stories of old is our beginning search for meaning. Amazingly without the over burden of material things. Once we got the printing press and refrigerators somehow these old stories became antique. I believe this to be a mistake. I figured i would cast my lot into the mix in some organized fashion to see what feedback would come in reviewing the ancient stories. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Lisa Vanderburg

4 years ago #17

Meaning...such a richness of meaning in this stunning buzz Harvey Lloyd! It will take me several reads to even try and offer something of value, for you teach broad strokes with the finest of brushes, layering over one another in a rainbow of transparancy. Yes, this is cyclical; our behavior, religious persuasion. Yes, we have to take that fearful responsability to be prepared to go against the grain of those nearest and dearest. No, we can't avoid chaos within these familial circles, for it would denote either tyranny, ambiguity or worse....indifference. I worry about the word 'religion'. I prefer 'faith' because we must be allowed to choose )I know you would agree with that). When we forget about the smallness of us in comparison to the infinate, arrogance can gain a foothold which affects everyone. Such a delightfully eye-opening piece, Harvey - I will be back! Thanks and sweet dreams! :)

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #16

Thanks for your comment and share. Debasish Majumder and appreciate your poetic thoughts. When we find ourselves in a nebulous place of existence, something is wrong. Values or meaning are not being met within desire, sacrifice and beliefs. Stopping and taking account of potential of value directly in front and working through the values within the three domains is the only way to find the error. Generally it means we are in a causal loop.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #15

I liked the quote. It does appear that solutions do hang as low hanging fruit, but choosing to pick it would mean an end to insanity. Insanity requires savors and they are lining up to save us all from the brutal left and right. Tell you what though the local Philly mechanic might not be a bad place to start looking for meaning. You certainly get their version of truth at a fundamental level and be afraid to question their judgment:) Thanks for stopping by and sharing a quote.

Debasish Majumder

4 years ago #14

excellent buzz Harvey Lloyd! that is why i paid tribute in my previous buzz, particularly mentioned you sir. 'nebulous place of existence' alone trigger one to guess the mapping, though faint in understanding! however, enjoyed read and shared. thank you for the buzz sir.

Ali Anani

4 years ago #13

The interaction of the value-believe system is dynamic. This is an interesting topic to probe. Yes, the scaling up of value (fractal value) must be beyond narcissism or tribal -safe guarding.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #12

Interesting thought. The act of looking in the value proposition reinforces or changes your beliefs. Over time these beliefs become set and attached to the value system. So it does open new venues of thought. If we stop at self value we become narcissistic, if we stop at family/social then we become tribal, its when we traverse to the community that we find meaning.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #11

I agree trust is at the center of what we discuss. I can even stretch a tad bit and find some agreement with the steel rat theory. My problem is that the steel rat theory requires more faith to believe than religion. Religion has its version of this theory, the snake handlers. If you are bitten and don't die you must believe. The ancients agreed with your trust concept. Trust is the foundation of relationships, commerce, etc...But we what is trust? Trust is a faith that what i dont know will not kill me after the transaction is completed or i marry you and have children. The ancients new this about trust and beliefs were planted at the center of town and people grew around this center piece. Every new that each would be held accountable to that center piece of belief. Trust. Trust now, in the post modern experiment is more hope than trust. Judicial, regulation and international law seem to subvert trust as the precedents keep changing. Yes the "controllers" are coming or better named the langalore's. Get out your pitch fork and defeat the matrix:) And to quote a famous person i know, "and so it goes"

Ali Anani

4 years ago #10

I did, but your approach opens new venues of thought. The value issue is like an opal crystal and shows different images depending on the angle of viewing the opal crystal. Your analysis of historical development of the meaning of value mirrors the wave movement of humans over time.

Jerry Fletcher

4 years ago #9

Harvey, Big subject. More than I can handle this morning. For me it boils down to trust. Over five years ago I delivered a keynote that said in essence, "the single most important thing in today's world is trust...in yourself, in your colleagues, your company and your customers." Since that time I've seen the growth of block chain technology and I now believe that strangers can be added to the list. my view is that organized belief systems like religion and government will continue to erode while at the same time individuals intent on control will push corporations and non-profits to even greater levels. I doubt that individuals regardless of how intelligent will be able to withstand the power of the controllers. As Harry Harrison put it we'll have to become "Stainless Steel Rats."

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #8

Oddly enough i have thought that many of your posts were dancing around the issue of meaning and value. Utilizing nature as a guide. I am merely replacing nature with 1,000's of years of our ancestors seeking answers to the very questions of today that haunt our meaning. We can proclaim much but it is our actions that define our civilizations. What will history say came from this epoch. I would think that the main idea we would gain....beating each other up over stuff does not map us towards meaning. I would hope that those who despair would set down their fiery tongue and step into potential of value within family and community. Its tough but in the end offers you a place to rest upon. I have enjoyed your journey of attempting to find that path to meaning through the natural metaphors you use. They remind me of the ancient stories where chaos was expressed and conquered.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #7

I have read some of your posts and i think we share some thoughts as the world closes in on nirvana. At least their version of it. My attempt here was to show that if we pick up the mantra to bring value to family and community meaning will unmask itself, as it did in ancient times. Thanks for stopping by.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #6

Thanks i am intrigued by your thoughts. What if we saw respect in the journey for value and shared that regardless of the heated aspects of discussion. With each value proposition being given its due then we can learn to work through the proposition. It was ugly in antiquity and don't think its improved much. The sadness comes from the fact that many in our past have laid out many of the paths we are now walking. Sorting out desire, chaos and sacrifice is a troubling journey. Unfortunately we tend to repeat the journey with the need to reshuffle the deck. When we look at the Mesopotamian world where we grab the first concepts of mans dealing with chaos we see a few generations sorting this out. The Jews did this in parallel. Each attempting to sort out the way forward. We have dismissed both for some ideals we think we have. Although these stories appear mystical as we look at them, they were and are described from a context that they thought they lived in a domed flat earth. This was their version of science. Maybe this was crude, but not the humanity questions they sought to answer. Science wishes to write away these deep findings because they thought lightening came from gods. Just because i know where lightening comes from and that Pluto is no longer a planet, it doesn't add meaning to existence. Thanks for stopping by. I am attempting to investigate that value creation is the map of meaning.

Joel Anderson

4 years ago #5

Thanks for a great post Harvey Lloyd Like you I have tried to contemplate some of the underlying issues of how we have gotten to where we are today. https://www.bebee.com/producer/@joel-anderson/emotional-sensationalism-lets-take-a-road-less-traveled https://www.bebee.com/producer/@joel-anderson/irrelativity-are-we-being-crowdsourced-into-irrelevance-through-a-war-on-words-and-artful-use-of-information We either create the necessary value proposition individually and through knowledge and intellect find common ground in our concentric circles of influence and interests or we will find ourselves being told by those who control information, thought and dialogue what value is. Which in the end, to a great extent, will be meaningless.

Harvey Lloyd

4 years ago #4

I agree clearly was a strong word. But would state that when we listen its clear to those who wish to direct our path. Thanks for stopping by and serving up some thought. The take away is that the path should always be clear for us to explore the narrative before us. The ancient stories new this and displayed them so that we might recognize we are individuals that need a group, not the other way around.

Ali Anani

4 years ago #3

This is a deep and insightful buzz Harvey Lloyd. It has so many points that are worthy of discussion. I read early on in the buzz "The essence of mankind is bringing value to themselves and the culture they participate. Later you clarified more "Start with the premise i am totally wrong, institute a blank experiment whereby you must create value in self, family/close social and community in that order" I believe honestly this is what shall bring order out of chaos. It is having a good seed (self) and then propagating it in the order you mentioned. Another point that I enjoyed greatly is discussing how our needs priorities develop of time. As children we need to build our bodies. As we grow we need to develop self and give it value. I haven't seen researches focusing enough light on how Maslow's Pyramid of Needs would change with our ages. I agree that the biggest need (realized or not) is is finding value for self and finding a way to propagate the wave of the value. This makes life meaningful and leads to self-actualization.

Randall Burns

4 years ago #2

Fascinating and thought provoking post Harvey Lloyd.You've summed it up well in the final paragraph and I really appreciate your statement of; "...and notice they only offer what is wrong with society." Agreed that there is not enough positive reinforcement in today's psyche. I must point out that " the journey is never, nor can it ever be, mapped out clearly", yes it is a "nebulous place of existence". It is the combination of science, religion and philosophy that helps us rationalize, to a degree, the "unknown", but we must accept that it will always remain "unknowable". It is this acceptance that is the first step in finding "value" in our existence.

Pascal Derrien

4 years ago #1

Deep..... :-) I don't have much to offer I kind of think about the value cycle as a vicious circle which very often fails past the declaration of intent..... and that whatever label you apply to it ( at least in a collective narrative) leaving us with discouraging encounters when most of us would love to see strength in unity.... Individualism is a force to reckon with but can rarely scale up as its nor practical nor the individuals capable of brightness have an appetite for it

Articles from Harvey Lloyd

View blog
5 years ago · 2 min. reading time

Photo Credit: · http://www.insidehr.com.au/3-key-trends-in-developing-healthier-leadership/ · We all ...

5 years ago · 6 min. reading time

Pic : · https://www.flickr.com/photos/kakissel/6242818496 · Help me get to where you are. · Seven ve ...

3 years ago · 3 min. reading time

I was conversing with a former Navy gentleman about the new stay put orders issued by the government ...

Related professionals

You may be interested in these jobs

  • bioMerieux SA Career Site - MULTI-LINGUAL

    Sr Application Specialist

    Found in: beBee S2 US - 2 hours ago

    bioMerieux SA Career Site - MULTI-LINGUAL Saint Louis, United States

    The primary focuses of the Senior Application Specialist are to ensure customer satisfaction and contribute to service profitability, Provide remote technical & scientific support & services, including troubleshooting and field action completion to guarantee the best remote fix r ...

  • Maintainer

    Aluminum Welder

    Found in: Jooble US - 3 hours ago

    Maintainer Melvin, IA, United States

    General Responsibility Statement: · Has basic knowledge of Gas Metal Arc Welding techniques and Maintainer job processes. Able to read and understand work orders and blueprints. Effectively utilizes tools such as tape measure, square, and basic air and hand tools. Able to work wi ...

  • Denny's

    Line Cook

    Found in: beBee S2 US - 4 days ago

    Denny's Palm Springs, United States Full time

    Line cook in fast paced family style restaurant. · Required qualifications: · 18 years or older · Legally authorized to work in the United States