Phil Friedman

4 years ago · 6 min. reading time · visibility 0 ·

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Hives, Groups, and Froot Loops

Hives, Groups, and Froot LoopsWITH MAJOR CHANGES AT LINKEDIN, A VACUUM IS DEVELOPING ON SOCIAL MEDIA FOR PROFESSION- AND INDUSTRY-SPECIFIC GROUPS ...


Preface:  The following ideas are presented not as some form of final solution to anything, but as an intended stimulant to further discussion. I invite you to read and to join the conversation. For I do believe strongly that the matter and structure of hives (groups) on beBee continues to be a critical issue going forward.


"The management of LIGOMM [ LinkedIn Group for Owners, Managers, and Moderators ] genuinely believes that we are now at the crossroads and that LI Groups are on life support that is likely to be a candidate for shut-down, when the 100% global rollout to the new 2017 LinkedIn User Interface (UI) eventually completes ... LIGOMM was created just over a year ago, in anticipation of and readiness for the very disconcerting occurrences users are witnessing today ... [when LI] withdrew multiple tools, features, and functions that users found useful, and restricted, limited and curtailed important aspects of communication, interaction, and link-building ... LIGOMM genuinely believes Groups, networking, communication, professional interaction and link-building to now be in existential jeopardy on LinkedIn."

Christine Willinsky in LIGOMM Group Management on LinkedIn

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Groups on LinkedIn are dead men walking ― and they have been for more than a year, since late 2015, when LI gutted them of the very tools and features which had enabled group owners and managers to successfully build and run relatively large units whose members were exceedingly loyal. For some history, see:

"Groups On LinkedIn – The Beginning Of The End?" (He Said He Said, No.9, February 2016)"

I have no intention of fomenting here a hand-wringing, teeth-gnashing session over the imminent demise of LinkedIn groups. For it is what it is. And anyway, it is not anything within our control or, for that matter, anything that can even be affected by our expressed opinions.

No sir, I have an entirely different agenda here, namely, to argue that groups on LI, as they were originally structured, were one of the main contributing factors, if not the main contributing factor to LI's early growth. And to argue further that the death and dismemberment of LinkedIn groups presents a prime opportunity for beBee to step in to fill a critical vacuum on social media.  And moreover,  to reap potentially huge benefits in terms of membership acquisition, not to mention prestige right across the SM landscape.

"Whoa," you say, "beBee already has hives, which are pretty much like groups, only organized around common interests or "affinities. So, what's the big deal?"

Well, the "big deal" is that the way groups were originally organized on LinkedIn differed considerably from the structure found in beBee hives.

First off, LinkedIn group owners and managers were originally provided with the tools to:

1) assure that posted content met the mission statement (topical parameters) of the group involved,

2) filter out spam and blatant commercial promotion that did not incorporate significant independent value,

3) moderate both posters and commenters for disruptive behaviors,

4) permanently exclude spammers and other repetitive disrupters, and

5) arrange for posts to be "featured", that is, pinned at the top of the group discussion queue.

Additionally, LI group owners could designate their groups as either "closed" (membership by approval) or  "open" (membership automatic upon request).  And they could designate a group to be either "public" (traffic visible to all platform users) or "private" (traffic visible only to group members).

As well, LI group owners and managers could receive notices when their attention to group management was needed, and group members could request to receive email notifications of new comments being posted in discussions in which they were participating or were following.

All that is seriously different from the structure of beBee hives:

"BeBee vs beBee:  Affinity Networking Is On the Line"


The result of the original tools afforded to LI group owners andmanagers was the growth of many profession- and industry-specific groups which attracted large memberships and in which a great number of meaningful and substantive discussions took place, thereby creating an aura of value for LinkedIn.

Ironically, it now appears that the very success and strength of such groups on LinkedIn became their eventual undoing. For it is clear in retrospect that they represented a challenge to LI management's misconceived program to tightly control engagement on a platform that was nominally a social network, but which was, in actuality, a data gathering and mining operation. Again, for some history, see:

1)  "Arrogant Control Is Not Leadership on Social Media, or Anywhere Else" 

2) "Take Your Algorithm and Shove It!"


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For those of you not already conversant with the history of LinkedIn, perhaps the most succinct and accurate summary is found in a statement by Data Analyst Samantha Bailey, who recently said, in an exchange between her and me, that "... it [LI] was never genuinely about networking or publishing, but about growing the database of personal and professional information. And that as soon as a certain critical mass was achieved, the shutters were pulled down on networking."

Be (or bee) that as it may, the fact is LinkedIn's abandonment of any vestige of interest in social networking and genuine social nets leaves the field clear for beBee to fill the void ―  particularly in regard to groups.

What is necessary, however, is for beBee ownership and management first to recognize that the prerequisites for successful development and growth of profession- and industry-specific groups (or "super-hives") include most, if not all of the tools and capabilities that LinkedIn groups had before the purge.


When building a new automobile, one is not expected to reinvent the wheel... nor accused of being unoriginal for not doing so...

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To my mind, there would be nothing wrong with copying or "paraphrasing" what was good and right with LI groups and turning that to the benefit of beBee and its current and future users.

Surely, beBee is sufficiently original and differentiated from its more mature competitors to be in a position to use to good advantage some of that which has been recklessly abandoned by LinkedIn, without being tagged a copycat  ― especially since LI has, in its own signature brand of ignorance, gutted those tools from its groups and eschewed any future use of them.

There are reportedly more than two million groups on LinkedIn. And from what I can see, there is a good chance more than 80% of them are presently languishing.

As I see it, providing an intelligent environment on beBee for the development and cultivation of professional, industry, and (even) scientific groups would open an entirely new avenue for the wholesale acquisition of new membership.

And I am certain that those of us on beBee who have significant experience owning and managing groups on LI, would be pleased to seek to migrate those groups from their current location, where they are ultimately doomed to a painful death, to beBee, where they would be offered renewed life and a good chance at well-being. It would be a paradigm of win-win.

So, what have Froot Loops to do with all of this?

Nothing, really. It just seemed that marketing the suggestion(s) presented here required some color and a phrase that alliterated the term "groups".   ―  Phil Friedman


Postscript:  For the record, I don't claim any originality here. There are a number of writers and other LI users who have been chronicling and writing about the trials and tribulations of LI groups and related issues for several years. Me? I am simply pleased and proud to be standing in solidarity with them. For, IMO, they represent some of the best of what social media and networking has to offer us all ―  a genuine concern for and commitment to community.

I cannot recommend their work in this area too highly.  Consequently, if you are interested in the topic of hives on beBee and groups on LinkedIn, please take some time to read what they have said and to check them out:

Samantha Bailey

Christine Wilinsky

Milos Djukic

Jim Murray

David B. Grinberg

John Vaughan

Plus a number of others to be found at

LinkedIn Group for Owners, Managers, and Moderators

and

Author's Notes:  If you found this post interesting and worthwhile and would like to receive notifications of my writings on a regular basis, click the [FOLLOW] button on my beBee profile. Better yet, elect there to follow my blog by email. As a writer-friend of mine says, you can always change your mind later.

Should you be curious about some of my other writings on social media, you're invited to take a look at the following:

"On the Limits of Free Expression"

"On Trees, Trolls, Trust and Truth"

"Self-Ascription, Self-Certification, and Snake Oil"

As well, feel free to "like" and "share" this post and my other articles — whether on beBee, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, or Google+, provided only that you credit me properly as the author, and include a live link to my original post.


About me, Phil FriedmanWith 30 some years background in the marine industry, I've worn numerous hats — as a yacht designer, boat builder, marine operations and business manager, marine industry consultant, marine marketing and communications specialist, yachting magazine writer and editor, yacht surveyor, and marine industry educator. I am also trained and experienced in interest-based negotiation and mediation. In a previous life, I was formally trained as an academic philosopher and taught logic and philosophy at university.


Before writing comes thinking (The optional-to-read pitch)

As a professional writer, editor, university educator, and speaker, with more than 1,000 print and digital publications, I've recently launched an online program for enhancing your expository writing: learn2engage — With Confidence. My mission is to help writers and would-be writers improve their thought and writing, master the logic of discussion, and strengthen their ability to deal with disagreement.


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For more information, click on the image immediately above. Or to schedule an appointment for a free 1/2-hour consult or to sit in on one of our online group sessions, email: info@learn2engage.org. I look forward to speaking with you soon. 


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#BEBEEVERSUSBEBEE #AFFINITYNETWORKING #BEBEE


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Comments
Anne 🐝 Thornley-Brown, MBA

Over a year later and I don't what to say. I have significantly cut back on my social media use across the board as I am seeing no R.O.I. I decided to give the status updates a good hard try for 6 months. It's been 8 months. I was about to pull the plug when someone introduced the #10tips10days hashtag. So I decided to give it a try. NO improvement. I am not a quitter so I will give it a try for the full duration. I have 5 days left. After this, I will pretty much use social media for research purposes. To identify prospects and reach out to them by other methods. Unfortunate after the amount of time and energy I have invested in social media.

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

3 years ago #175

Phil Friedman , as promised, great improvements are coming during the next months for you :-)

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #174

#281
Well, John, hope does spring eternal. My guess is that the key to increased responsiveness (genuine) and resulting improvements will be the ongoing loosening of the control exercised by the old regime -- which to all outward appearances was almost totally obsessed with control of the traffic on the platform and with the support of their misbegotten Influencer program. The only available option is to wait and see while continuing to make one's opinion known. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #173

#278
As you and Juan Imaz do for many, many users on beBee. It is one reason why there is a strong sense of community growing here. Which, of course, doesn't mean we all agree all of the time on how we'd like to see things go. Ultimately, it's your platform, but I've always been impressed with your willingness to listen to divergent viewpoints. Cheers!

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

3 years ago #172

#276
John Marrett my time.is also limited but I am taking time for you ;)

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #171

#275
John, unless things have changed significantly since the MS buyout, the response at lower levels might be quick, but it generally leads nowhere -- at least not when we're talking about policy or procedures issues. I do not consider the fixing of an operational "bug" to be in the same category as a discussion about arbitrarily rigging the Algorithm to choke down notifications to an author's connections and followers. As to Facebook for business, I personally am less interested in B2C than in B2B. And my only concern vis a vis choice of platform is where the greatest potential market is gathering. Of course, you and Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee are correct when you advise not to put all your eggs in one basket -- because experience shows (especially with LinkedIn) that we can never trust the ownership and management of a platform to deliver long-term on their promises. And so the only safe course is to have an alternate platform to which to switch quickly and with a minimum of down time. Thanks for helping to give this older discussion new "legs". Cheers!

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

3 years ago #170

#250
John Marrett, a very IMPORTANT thing, beBee is NOT going to replace LI, and IT WILL HOPEFULLY NEVER BE LINKEDIN . Please keep on using LI for your purposes. beBee has DIFFERENT purposes :-) You will enjoy our next collaborative platform :-) Enjoy both platforms !! beBee loves Linkedin. Don't worry: beBee loves your favorite network ! beBee is in love with Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and Google+ !!! https://www.bebee.com/producer/@javierbebee/why-bebee-reasons-to-be-on-bebee

Lada 🏡 Prkic

Lada 🏡 Prkic

3 years ago #169

#265
Phil, I see your whole series of articles as written with good intentions and the commitment to the future of beBee. I hope the management will perceive your and other commenters' suggestions in that way. We all want beBee to succeed, as well as for the sake of us ordinary users who have found beBee a great platform for socializing.

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

3 years ago #168

Another info Phil Friedman: HIVES will be more powerful and improved soon. Thanks . Enjoy the journey :-)

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #167

#260
True words, Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee. I tried for years, first to engage, then to provoke. I even took to calling Jeff Weiner and Reed Hoffman "the Wiener and the Whopper" -- in order to draw out some response. Dead silence. I guess they were too busy counting the Microsoft money. I guess I don't really blame them. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #166

#257
Numo, thank you for joining the conversation. I myself had an experience similar to yours on LinkedIn with my "Jim Able" satirical pseudonym, which I use for pieces that I don't want archived with my "professional" profile. My frustration with LI over that issue was not so much that they wouldn't recognize the long-standing literary tradition of using a pen name, but that enforcement of the policy was far from uniform. For example, they closed my Jim Anle account, whilst leaving literally thousands of others that even more blatantly violated their "rules". See Jim Able's blog here on beBee for a recap of the details. Welcome to beBee and cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #165

#256
No, Lada \ud83c\udfe1 Prkic, it is not, The initial article in this beBee vs beBee series holds, I think the record -- with 98 relevants and 400 comments. ‪https://www.bebee.com/producer/@friedman-phil/affinity-networking-is-on-the-line‬ But taken together, I believe the seven articles in this series demonstrate a huge level of concern with and commitment to the future of beBee. As well as the value of speaking openly and candidly about perceived issues. Thank you for reading and commenting, and my thanks to all who have participated in this discussion and continue to do so. Cheers!

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

3 years ago #164

#262
Numo Quest thanks !!! Growth is abput "enjoying the journey". What I love is Mountain climbing. You enjoy the journey and the effort. When you are on the top after climbing, you feel you are happy but you feel "empty". I prefer to endeavor to climb the mountains :-)

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

3 years ago #163

#262
Numo Quest thanks !!! Growth is "enjoying the journey". What I love Mountain climbing. You enjoy the journey and the effort. When you are on the top after climbing you feel you are happy by "empty". I prefer to endeavor to climb the mountains :-)

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

3 years ago #162

#259
Numo Quest thanks for your support. It is much appreciated. Your words help to keep on working hard :-)

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

3 years ago #161

#253
John Marrett we are working hard on a new great release. Try to engage with LI top executives , good luck ! :-)

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

3 years ago #160

#252
John Marrett I LOVE to "miss a boat " whenever we are growing like this. We expect to be profitable by the end of this year :-) ENJOY THE JOURNEY ! bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Lada 🏡 Prkic

Lada 🏡 Prkic

3 years ago #159

Phil, is this the longest thread on beBee so far? :-)

John White, MBA

John White, MBA

3 years ago #158

#253
John Marrett, I actually would say the engagement and reach you got on beBee was superb considering your investment. (Far better than the reach on Medium or Wordpress for example). You are a well known in your network on LinkedIn and your network is much bigger there. I think you have to keep that in mind when making comparisons.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #157

#252
Thank you, John Marrett, for your detailed and thoughtful comments. I personally believe it important for members of the "extended beBee family" to hear independent opinions from outside the "established circle" -- especially in the area of business-oriented activity. One of the reasons I re-activated this post is that, watching the FB juggernaut move to expand its FB-for-business operations and its support for profession- and industry-specific groups, I tend to agree with you not that beBee has "missed the boat", but that there is a distinct danger it will. Cheers!

David B. Grinberg

David B. Grinberg

3 years ago #156

#245
John Marrett has informed us that a revamp of this platform will be ready to go live in the near future with many improved features. Thus, I hope you will reconsider buzzing on beBee more often in that regard. Thanks for considering this. Also, just remember where LI, FB, Twitter and other age-old social media monoliths were 2-years after they launched -- far from perfect. In fact, beBee has approximately the same number of total users that LinkedIn had 2-years after it launched many moons ago -- and the engagement on beBee from Global CEO Javier on down is unparalleled by other well established sites. Thus, beBee will likewise proliferate with even users and even more engagement, with new features, in the near future. beBee is still on course to BEE "the next big thing" in the social media space. Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day either.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #155

#241
Thank you, John Marrett, for reading and commenting. You are correct. LinkedIn has been killing its own groups for more than a year now by dismantling the tools that enabled Group owners and managers to efficiently run large profession- and industry-specific groups. I have personally never seen a better example of shortsightedness driven by an obsessive concern with corporate control. The ironic fact for me is that other SM platforms, with the exception of FB, have not realized how vital strong groups can be to cultivating and maintaining a stable user base. Even beBee, which came onto the scene touting "Affinity Networking" has not evidenced a serious understanding of the role groups can play in such networking. Perhaps, that is why Facebook remains the 800-pound gorilla in the room, and promises to continue to grow and solidify its position. How much longer will the competitors of FB continue to say it's not for "business"? I venture to say only until FB completes its entry into the world of business and professional networking -- at which point most of its competitors will choke on their own smugness. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #154

#241
Thank you, John Marrett, for reading and commenting. You are correct. LinkedIn has killing its own groups for more than a year now by dismantling the tools that enabled Group owners and managers to efficiently run large profession- and industry-specific groups. I have personally never seen a better example of shortsightedness driven by an obsessive concern with corporate control. The ironic fact for me is that other SM platforms, with the exception of FB, have not realized how vital strong groups can be to cultivating and maintaining a stable user base. Even beBee, which came onto the scene touting "Affinity Networking" has not evidenced a serious understanding of the role groups can play in such networking. Perhaps, that is why Facebook remains the 800-pound gorilla in the room, and promises to continue to grow and solidify its position. How much longer will the competitors of FB continue to say it's not for "business"? I venture to say only until FB completes its entry into the world of business and professional networking -- at which point most of its competitors will choke on their own smugness. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #153

#236
Thank you, Franci, for saying so. I think those who fail to learn from history are destined to fail in the future, as well. Strong groups were an anchor for LI growth. If I owned a SM platform, I'd look seriously at groups as a bridge to early quantum growfh.

Franci 🐝Eugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador

Good post for revival Phil Friedman, especially since LI groups appear to be closer to meeting their fate.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

3 years ago #151

Reinventing the wheel doesn't make sense, although perfecting it does...

Jim Murray

Jim Murray

4 years ago #150

A recent survey has concluded that I am quite literally the only Canadian who is not fanatically obsessed with hockey. I do have my moments, but I gave up on the Leafs when they traded Frank Mahovolich to Montreal.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #149

#229
You are right, Paul, as anyone who has visited a sports bar in rural Ontario or Quebec would know. Outsiders tend to mistake a propensity to queue up for mild-mannerness, when it's more like checking your gun at the door. Cheers, mon ami.

Renée 🐝 Cormier

Renée 🐝 Cormier

4 years ago #148

#228
Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee the feeling is mutual!

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #147

I do love our named canadians Ren\u00e9e \ud83d\udc1d Cormier and ALL OF THEM.... wasps are flying out of the hive :-)

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #146

#224
Michael, there are few, if any true Canucks on beBee. There are some imposters, but they are exposed by their outspokeness (Ren\u00e9e \ud83d\udc1d Cormier). I suspect they are secretly Aussies and Kiwis. Cheers

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #145

#224
Michael, there are few, if any true Canucks on beBee. There are some imposters, but they are exposed by their outspokeness (Ren\u00e9e \ud83d\udc1d Cormier). I suspect they are secretly Aussies and Kiwis. Cheer

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #144

#223
Perhaps, Michael O'Neil, off the main thread, but interesting nevertheless. Thank you for reading and joining the conversation. And for the kind words. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #143

#221
Perhaps, Donna, but for LinkedIn that would be a trend back toward where groups were prior to 2015. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #142

#219
Yes, Milos, we group owners and managers have been beaten and battered over the years by LinkedIn, but ... we shall return. At least as soon as we find a platform that will treat us honestly and fairly, and provide the tools to build and maintain professional and serious business and industry specific groups. Cheers!

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #141

#217
Thank you Anne Thornley-Brown!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #140

#217
Anne, thank you for reading and for the kind words. I welcome your posting here links to your articles on the topic because the goal is to create a complete conversation, that is, to see the entire elephant, so to speak. The effective destruction of LI groups by LI is an instance of corporate dishonesty in the extreme, not to mention being incredibly myopic. Cheers!

Anne 🐝 Thornley-Brown, MBA

This is excellent. A someone who was actively involved in groups and managing groups from start (almost) to finish (which is where things seem to be heading), you have nailed it. Check out the conclusions I came to after over 8 years as an active group owner and manager on LinkedIn: - Personal Reflections of a LinkedIn Group Owner and Manager https://www.bebee.com/producer/@anne-thornley-brown/personal-reflections-of-a-linkedin-group-owner-and-manager - Why a Power LinkedIn and Twitter User Has Been Blown Away by beBee http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-a-power-linkedin-and-twitter-user-has-been-blown_us_58c18a8ce4b0c3276fb78215 Comments are welcome.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #138

#215
Thank you, John, for reading and commenting.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #137

I agree, Christine. More the pity because the better run groups before 2014 carried a lot of valuable B2B and P2P engagement. Thanks for reading and commenting ... and for the good work you've done on groups. Cheers! PS - consider coming over to beBee where we're looking to make things more user-centric.

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #136

#211
Thanks Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee!

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #135

Claire \ud83d\udc1d Cardwell I admire you. I can tell you that I work daily for getting a beBee always COOL and positive ! You made my day. Thanks for your support. Hopefully you will enjoy the next platform. We are building beBee with our bees !

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #134

Part 2 People now have a very skewed opinion of you as a man and what you stand for. They are not aware of your contribution to business with your extensive range of self-help books. You were in a unique position with your skills and reach to be an an ambassador - I am not talking about beBee here, I am talking about you being an Ambassador for yourself and your books. Please Robert - take a deep breath, look around you, smell the roses and be who you are meant to be. It's not too late for you to make a radical difference to people's lives here on beBee and on LinkedIn with all your excellent books. cc Javier 🐝 beBee

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #133

#205
Part 1 Robert - there is one person that has been terribly harmed by all the negativity from this fight between you and Phil Friedman. That person is you. You have consistently been negative on almost all of Phil's posts and he has been trying very hard not to react and to take the higher ground. Phil on the other hand has not commented on any of your posts. You have also written articles about Phil - you might not name names, but everybody knows that you are writing about him. I first came across you on LinkedIn and to be honest with you I blocked you. I block people on LinkedIn who are negative and who post inappropriately - LinkedIn is not Facebook, I did not need my feed clogged up with Maths problems, religious propaganda and scantily clad girls looking for attention. I did mute you here on beBee a while back, but it didn't seem to work. In fact last August after reading yet another one of your rants against Phil I decided to shelve beBee and only really came back at the beginning of the year. cc Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #132

thanks Robert Bacal we are not expecting any comment from you in your respective articles. Many thanks. Now we are HAPPY. To be honest, that only is damaging your image. Claire \ud83d\udc1d Cardwell thanks. Not only you were exhausted about this nonsense give-and-take.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #131

I think that there are some important lessons to be learned from this thread. One is the reason for which I have for some time now refrained from making critical comments on the posts of others unless I am confident they welcome such exchange of views. And that, if I feel really strongly about some idea or opinion, i express that in an independent post without specifically addressing it to anyone. The reason for that is a) to keep the criticism about ideas and opinions and not about people, b) to give those whose idea or opinion is the object of my disagreement, the option of ignoring me, and c) to not force someone whose idea I critical of, to have my criticism, however generic it may be, permanently associated with their post. In this way, the choice to engage or not is left to the person whose opinion is being questioned. It also means that if others believe I am full of bull chips, they can ignore me at their option, At one time, I believed it was almost my civic duty to point out BS wherever and whenever I saw it. But I no longer believe that -- except when it relates to politics and hate talk. And I invite you all to ponder the issue. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #130

#200
Thank you, Claire, for caring. My best to you.

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #129

#172
Robert, please stop this fight with Phil Friedman

Federico Álvarez San Martín

#26
#22 Yes. In the new platform the access to the buzzes of any bee will be more visual, besides being able to access your porpios buzzes of beBee and Producer of faster way. Thanks for the patience.

Federico Álvarez San Martín

#30
Anonymous appears when a user signs off on beBee. Yes, soon we will have the option to block user on the new platform.

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #126

#196
thanks

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #125

#194
Very simple,, Javier, to accomplish. You will not find a comment concerning Bacal by me anywhere on beBee other than on my own posts, and then only in response. . I would be happy never to have to reply to him again and to never again see a comment from him about me. Indeed , that is exactly what I've suggesteded many times already. Consequently, I will personally comply with your request, and hope you will ensure that Bacal does as well. Thank you and best regards.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #124

#194
Very simple Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee, to accomplish.?you will not find a comment concerning Bacal by me anywhere on beBee other than on my own post, and then only in response. I would be happy never to mention him again or to never again see a comment from him about me. Indeed, that is exactly what I've suggesteded many times. Thank you.

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #123

Robert Bacal

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #122

#189
Me, John, I prefer the message of Proverbs 27:2 - "Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips." (See now, doesn't that beat all, Friedman quoting scripture?). There ought to be a hive or two where this can be shared. But for followers of Eastern wisdom, from The Wisdom of Chung King (circa 650 AD) - "He who keeps his mouth open excessively, often ends up eating flies." It's been fun. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #121

#184
I get all that papered stuff, John. Please say hello to God for me next time he calls you on the hotline for advice. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #120

#183
Again, Robert Bacal, res ipsa loquitur.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #119

My apologies to all for subjecting you to the long rebuttal of the scurrilous and unsupported innuendo once again leveled at me by Robert Bacal, but enough is enough, and his slanderous statements have to be answered once and for all. For those of you interested in business, the circumstances of my work at the PalmerJohnson group of companies and the outcome constitute an interesting case study, which I have not previously published much about. Thank you all for your patience. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #118

#172
Contrary to your protestations, Robert Bacal, you once again uses scurrilous innuendo to level a completely unsupported claim clearly intended to besmirch my professional and business reputation, and moreover, in complete ignorance and all lack of business understanding. You say, below, "And sir, you have pissed off a lot of people in your OWN industry because of Palmer Johnson." What are the alleged details, Robert? How many people in my industry have you spoken to? Have you talked to the prominent executives who worked for me at PJ and who provide letters of recommendation on my LinkedIn profile? Have you read the 100-page plus report by law Prof. Ralph Anzivino of Marquette University Law School, who was appointed AT MY INITIATION by the District Federal Court to review the circumstances and who confirmed the correctness of all of my actions at President and CEO of that company in assuring that, whilst operating as a Debtor-in-Possession during a Chapter 11 Reorganization, kept the company operating, completed tens of millions of dollars in yacht building contracts without any loss being suffered by any customers, saved more that 500 jobs companywide (including at PJ Savannah), and enabled the company to emerge reorganized in a way that allowed its continued operation for more than a decade and a half? ....cont.Pt II

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #117

#172
Contrary to your protestations, Robert Bacal, you once again uses scurrilous innuendo to level a completely unsupported claim clearly intended to besmirch my professional and business reputation, and moreover, in complete ignorance and all lack of business understanding. You say, below, "And sir, you have pissed off a lot of people in your OWN industry because of Palmer Johnson." What are the alleged details, Robert? How many people in my industry have you spoken to? Have you talked to the prominent executives who worked for me at PJ and who provide letters of recommendation on my LinkedIn profile? Have you read the 100-page plus report by law Prof. Ralph Anzivino of Marquette University Law School, who was appointed AT MY INITIATION by the District Federal Court to review the circumstances and who confirmed the correctness of all of my actions at President and CEO of that company in assuring that, whilst operating as a Debtor-in-Possession during a Chapter 11 Reorganization, kept the company operating, completed tens of millions of dollars in yacht building contracts without any loss being suffered by any customers, saved more that 500 jobs companywide (including at PJ Savannah), and enabled the company to emerge reorganized in a way that allowed its continued operation for more than a decade and a half? ....cont.Pt II

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #116

#172
Bacal - Pt.II -- Did you look at the company's financial records to see that it was, in today's dollars, more than $75 million in debt and less than a week away from being forced into a Chapter 7 liquidation, when I took over as CEO? Did you consider the fact that over a four-year period under my direction, the company more than tripled its sales revenues, more than doubled its workforce, and continued to strengthen its brand as a world-class shipyard? Do you know about the $50 million in recapitalization that was promised me when I took over in the shadow of my predictions of millions of dollars in losses yet to come in on pre-existing contracts? Do you know about how that promised recapitalization failed to materialize three years later when the predicted losses on those pre-existing contracts began to come in? I seriously doubt that you can HONESTLY answer yes to any of these questions. For what would a pissant like you know about what it is to face a $2 million dollar per month payroll or to deal with any of the issues in running a $100 million-plus company. ... cont Pt III

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #115

#172
Bacal - Pt III... So why don't you just go off and write and try to sell your Complete Idiot's guides to whatever. And leave the rest of us to have some genuine exchanges. You know, I have several semi-retired lawyer friends in Toronto and Ottawa a couple of whom have been salivating to file slander suits against you; and I think I will be taking them up on their offer. Being a Canadian Permanent Resident makes that a real possibility. You know, Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee, I am so fed up with the slanderous aspersions cast by this mean-spirited little man, I cannot wait until you roll out the blocking function. CC: @Jim Murray, @Don Kerr, @Kevin Pashuk (For the record, guys, because I haven't talked about it before.)

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #114

#173
Wetting my pants, laughing so hard, John, at your assertion that, "At the very least, socialNets pretty much *by definition* offer free publishing (and viewing) services to pretty much anyone. This is definitively not the case at "CNN, Fox New, NBC, or CBS", as you seem to believe" You are wrong and wrong-headed on all counts. 1) By whose "definition", yours? Pardon me if I am so uppity as to not see you as an absolute authority defining what Social Media is and isn't. 2) The fact is there is a stronger legal and Constitutional basis for demanding access to "equal time" on network news in the U.S. than on SM platforms such as LinkedIn and beBee. Because such news networks operate by leasing space on airways owned by the U.S. public, which is why they are regulated by the FCC, must apply periodically for license renewals, and so on. Moreover, it has been established in the Courts that, because of their status as lessees on publicly-owned airways, they have a responsibility to provide time, gratis if necessary, for the expression of "opposing opinion". Consequently, if anything, you have it backwards. Come out of your cave, John. The shadows you're seeing on the wall are your own. Cheers!

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #113

#175
Robert Bacal, I agree with you, this is not a perfect solution for sure.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #112

"Leadership and Successful Human Conversations", LI long-form post, published on March 1, 2015 https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/leadership-successful-human-conversations-milos-djukic?trk=mp-reader-card

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #111

#169
Fractal troll is here, as always :)

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #110

#168
You are most welcome Phil Friedman. This is a very important topic, hence I am here. "I cannot recommend their work in this area too highly." - Thanks for the kind words. What I once said: The Agony and the Ecstasy of Social Media Writing (and not only writing...).

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #109

#165
I don't know, Jim, why I am, as you say, a troll magnet. Perhaps, because I do not take to being bullied. BTW, it is not the "Phil and Robert Show" -- although the use of that phrase may give everyone an indication of what underlies the stalking and trolling involved over the last three years plus. No, if there is a show, it is the HE SAID HE SAID show, which has established itself first on LI, then beBee. Because it is genuine, open, and I believe valuable in stimulating engagement on SM. Sporadically imitated, but never so far duplicated. Cheers, my good friend. And thanks to all out there who have supported the Grumpy and Grouchy show, trolls or no trolls.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #108

#162
you are correct, Milos, you and I are in agreement on all substantive points. And because you are an experienced LI group owner and manager, I especially value your opinions here. Thank you for joining and staying with the conversation. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #107

#161
Robert Bacal, I could not care less what you do. In fact, you've already done most of what you describe. Both on LinkedIn and beBee time and time again for more than three years. . Except that nothing you've posted has been factual. It's all been misrepresentation, innuendo, and blatant lies. And to what end? Who knows. What I do know is that you appear to stand in fear trembling at the thought of people on beBee being able to block you and remove your comments from their posts. The why of that is obvious to me, but others should ask themselves why the thought bothers you so. I do not question your right to express yourself, within the bounds of decency and the laws re slander and libel. But I deny you have a right to demand to do so where ever and wherever you choose in private venues. Why don't you return to commenting on your own post in the subject, the link to which you've already posted here -- no doubt in search of readers.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #106

#160
Is it relevant, John,? Absolutely. Indeed, it is the main point when it comes to allegations of censorship and related concerns. It's just not convenient because it reduces your argument ad absurdum. You seem to operate on the premise that SM platforms are open, public forums. Which they are not. If they were, the T&C wouldn't be worth the paper they aren't printed on. So I am happy to agree to disagree on this one. Peace.

Jim Murray

Jim Murray

4 years ago #105

Ooooo, I'm feeling goodsbumps from the chilling implications of censorship on social media. Jesus wept. What makes you such a troll magnet, Mr Friedman? Enquiriting minds need to know.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #104

#163
Robert Bacal, Please check #162.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #103

#146
Phil Friedman, I do not see in your comment #146 disagreements with my opinions as expressed in #145, #143 and #142. How about you ? Moderation process for professional groups is something else. Maybe I was not clear: 1. Reporting only (member can not delete) by members of an inappropriate comment and post (including within personal post or article) outside of the professional group and 2 Full moderation and group rules within the professional group, where group owner or admin can delete any inappropriate post, conversation and comment, but within group only. Group member can report any inappropriate post, conversation and comment. This is my opinion and proposal, the same model that has been successfully adopted on LI. Best, Milos cc. Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #102

#158
That comment, John, is completely off-base. There are no "chilling implications" except for those who can only garner notice on the coat tails of others, by despoiling the conversations on their posts. As has been pointed out over and over again, as long as everyone remains free to express themselves as they see fit in their own original posts, local moderation is not a manifestation of censorship. Is it chilling that I cannot demand time on CNN, Fox New, NBC, or CBS? No. To my mind, Trumpism is the tactic of accusing others of doing deeds that you yourself do. Beyond that, if I block someone, what difference? I am only one person in 13 million on beBee. If every one of the "mob" that you have referred to blocks you, what does it matter? They are only, maybe 10 or 20 of 13 million. I am happy to live with those odds. Indeed, I already defacto do because I voluntarily refrain from commenting on the posts of those who don't care for critical discussion. I am personally much more concerned with the Two-Jays commitment to distribute 100% of an author's posts to 100% of the author's followers 100% of the time -- a commitment unprecedented and unmatched in today's world of social media and networking. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #101

#156
To quote Gerald Hecht, "res ipsa loquitur".

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #100

#149
Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee, I am only add... "on beBee" Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #99

#150
#150 Gerald Hecht, the answer is... BigPoppa SyrupSlurper.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #98

#147
Lada, time-zone disconnects notwithstanding, your words are wise and no surprise -- Oh, wait! The rhyming was part of my reply to Gerald Hecht. Seriously, I agree completely. If an author removes a comment from the thread on his or her post because it is disruptive in one way or another to the conversation, that is not censorship precisely because the commenter remains free to publish that same comment as an independent post. If course, the commenter will not then be able to hang on the author's coat tails in order to gain notice, but will have to stand on his or her own merits or lack thereof. I have personally taken to making my critical comments about ideas and some opinions in independent posts. And granted, I've been criticized for doing so. While at the same time criticized for making critical comments on the posts of others (which I don't often do). There is no winning with those who want to squelch all critical discussion. Thank you for reading and commenting with such acumen. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #97

#148
Gerald, when you're up to your butt in Maple leaves, and tired of politely waiting in the queue, I predict you will pick up a hockey stick... and play wackadoo on more than one Schmoo. When the Northern Lights confuse the flights of Canada geese, and 10-year old cheddar tastes even better... we'll sit on a shelve and wish we had lost... the war in 1812. Cheers!

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #96

#150
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #95

#148
the critical issue is not a quimical process ,... is not LinkedIn ...are not the hives.... There is one thing that underpins everything in your life... yes, everything! What could it be? Money? No — despite what you think! As long as you have enough so you can eat and have shelter and can pay for essentials, money is not a factor in joy. Health? To some degree yes — but this other thing impacts your health dramatically. Family? No. They help but don’t affect everything. Position or status in life? No — that is just a label anyway. The one thing that underpins all areas in your life is... How you feel about yourself. That’s it. Bee cool, Be happy, be a bee ! 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

Lada 🏡 Prkic

Lada 🏡 Prkic

4 years ago #94

Phil, we live in different time zones, so I couldn't answer earlier. :) I am not surprised, at all, to see such number of comments on this blog post. Your posts always attract both supporters and opponents, no matter the subject you write about. It took me almost an hour to read all comments and some linked articles. Some commenters constantly repeat the same "mantra", already seen in the comment threads on your previous posts. I don't know the history or the context of these quarrels, but I get bored of reading the same stuff over and over again. This kind of useless conversation turns me off. As I can see from the comment thread, all the participants agree with the use of the moderation tools inside the groups/hives. I see that you already periodically delete and/or reclassify posts that don't belong in your hive. And I agree with that, if it is defined by the group rules. When it comes to the comment threads, I am in agreement with the removal of the hateful comments. The comments which continuously try to derail the discussion should also be moderated. Everyone who thinks that his/her comments are purged without reasons, or the post on which a member has commented contains the false or misleading information, can always write their own post on that matter, which, in my opinion, will draw more attention than the bickering in the comment thread of the other author's post.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #93

#145
Yes, that is true. However, Milos, unless it's changed, reporting a comment or post temporarily hides it, until LinkedIn management makes a decision. Members of a group used to be able to flag a post or comment within a group for review by the group owner or manager(s). As I remember, managers could set the group rules to temporarily hide the post or comment automatically if three members flagged it. But however one parses it, you cannot run a large group effectively without being able to exclude repetitive disruptive, irrelevant, and spam posting and commenting. For example, how could you run an engineering group if you could not stop non-engineering morons like me from rendering uninformed opinions about hydrogen embrittlement? :-)

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #92

Moderation process on Linkedin is different for posts and articles and for posts within groups. Moderation process for posts and articles is done by LinkedIn, based on reports from users (user can not delete the comment), while moderation process for posts within groups is done by group owner and moderators (group owner or moderator can delete the comment).

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #91

#135
Robert Bacal, once again you very clearly demonstrate why I generally refuse to engage with you and why I refuse to comment on your posts or in any way publicize them. Namely, by again distorting my statements and stated positions for your own ends. Bacal > "What it means is that if, for example person x writes a racist post, that person x can delete ANY comments on that post that he wants gone. Is that what you want? Because that does happen to be what Phil wants the power to do, AND it's what Javier has said is coming. Racist and other hate speech is clearly within the parameters of what I have many times said should be subject to reporting and removal by platform management. It doesn't matter to me if a racist or hate monger deletes my or any or every comment on his or her post. For I have no need to strut and preen as a defender of right and justice in such cases, but only to help assure that such a post is taken down. 2) Bacal> "He post has NOTHING to do with Phil. It has to do with the chilling effects of allowing people who post to DELETE and/or block people who want to respond to the post/honey, and the extreme danger that creates for misuse, slander, attacks, and misinformation." Good Trump-like move. Accuse others of what you repeatedly do yourself. No, contrary to what you allege I did not say or imply it had anything to do with me. But I do agree that action should be taken against slander, libel, lies, misrepresentation, distortions, and attacks repeatedly posted -- for example, as you have done over several years against me personally. And yes, I blocked you on LinkedIn (the only time I've ever done that) after you slandered my business history and background with your utter ignorance of U.S. bankruptcy law. And I will block you on beBee as soon as the capability is available. Of course, that should not matter to you if I will be one of 13 million to do so.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #90

Moderation process for professional groups on LinkedIn is something else and depends on group rules defined by group owner. Group rules for my Hydrogen Embrittement Group on LinkedIn "Welcome to the Hydrogen Embrittement LinkedIn Group! Hydrogen Embrittement group discuss matters related to hydrogen embrittlement mechanisms of metallic materials. **General Group Rules** The purpose of this group is to share knowledge.. Any information obtained from this professional group is expressed as an opinion only and no warranty, expressed or implied, is given as to its suitability for any particular purpose. No information you consider confidential should be posted to this group. By posting you agree to be solely responsible for the content of all information you contribute, link to, or otherwise upload to the website and release Hydrogen Embrittlement group owner from any liability related to your use of the Website. In all instances please check copyright before posting. A link or reference to the source where the material (paper, publication...) was obtained must be stated. Posts are moderated for relevance and suitability. **Advertising Products and Services** Group owner do not allow people to post threads or to send private messages to users that advertise or solicit any products or services. Any such posts will be removed. Posts which are not explicit adverts but are overly commercial will also be moved to promotions or removed from the group. I appreciate your collaboration in making this group a success with your technical - researcher input and comments."

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #89

#139
You are welcome Phil Friedman. Reporting (flag and hide option on LinkedIn) of an Inappropriate comment to beBee within our article (post) or within other members article (post) with explanation why we chose to report the comment (drop down menu with preselected answers, including "other" option for particular reasons) is the only viable solution. Any other option open the possibility for abuse.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #88

cc. Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #87

On LinkedIn, Groups admins, on the other hand, can delete any conversations and comments within Groups "Deleting Group Conversations and Comments" - LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/1082/deleting-group-conversations-and-comments?lang=en) As a group member, you can delete only the conversations and comments that you have posted in a group. Groups admins, on the other hand, can delete any conversations and comments. Admins also have a certain degree of latitude for deciding the purpose of the group and the type of conversation content to allow. To delete a conversation (as a group admin or the conversation's original poster): Move your cursor over Interests at the top of your homepage and select Groups. Click My Groups at the top of the page and select your group's name from the list. Click the conversation title to access the conversation Click the Menu icon in the upper right corner of the conversation box. Click Delete. To delete a comment (as a group admin or the conversation's original poster): Click the conversation title to view the full conversation. Scroll down to the comments. On the comment that you would like to delete, click the Menu icon in the upper right corner of the conversation box. Click Delete.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #86

#137
Milos, thank you,my friend, for clarifying the current situation on LinkedIn. I draw your attention to the fact, however, that this document is fairly recent, and that a few years ago, it was possible for the author of a post to delete a comment on that post. I agree that, at some time during the intervening years that changed.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #85

LinkedIn: "In the pop-up window, tell us more about why you chose to report the comment" !

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #84

On LinkedIn person x can not delete any comments within his post. "Managing Comments on Published Articles" - LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/47543/managing-comments-on-long-form-posts?lang=en) Members can comment on published articles that have comments enabled. Comments are a great way for members to engage with other professionals on topics that matter the most to them. Friendly discussions and respectful debates are encouraged. Comments on published articles are viewable by other members, tied to your professional identity, and can be seen by your network and others on the web. Some published articles may have comments disabled. You can flag and hide abusive or offensive comments made on your own articles. To do this: Click the More icon on the top right of a comment. Click Report to report the comment. In the pop-up window, tell us more about why you chose to report the comment. You can also disable comments on your published articles. By doing that however, all existing comments will be deleted. To disable comments: Locate your article from your recent activity or from the publishing tool. Click the Settings icon at the bottom of your article. Click Disable comments and then Save Changes. To re-enable comments, simply click Allow comments and Save changes. If you had previously disabled comments, re-enabling comments will not bring back any comments that were deleted.

Franci 🐝Eugenia Hoffman, beBee Brand Ambassador

Arrived a bit late for this post and I must say I enjoyed the post, Phil, and the comments, as well. 😎 I still belong to a few LI groups, one being 476,000 + members - "Connect Professional Women", which I enjoy. But, IMO, a lot of the groups have lost their luster. I rarely visit my groups, except beBee Buzz. I notice more and more comments on LI from frustrated members. It's unfortunate that their leadership doesn't seem to care.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #82

"Let everyone think what he likes and say what he thinks" by Brendan O’Neill on spiked-online.com (201 comments). http://www.spiked-online.com/freespeechnow/fsn_article/let-everyone-think-what-he-likes-and-say-what-he-thinks Difference between moderation and censorship: "When does moderation become censorship?" by Danny Matteson on blog.disqus.com/ https://blog.disqus.com/when-does-moderation-become-censorship "Removing hateful comments or banning users who are there to antagonize others isn’t censorship." - from "When does moderation become censorship?" "Moderation and Free Speech Online" by Cecil Eng Huang Chua on natcom.org https://www.natcom.org/CommCurrentsArticle.aspx?id=928 "There is a crucial difference between censorship and moderation. In censorship, someone is granted power to prohibit speech about a particular topic or event across a wide range of communication platforms. In contrast, moderation is the practice of prohibiting speech in a particular virtual community by authorities within that community. A topic that is moderated on one virtual community can be communicated elsewhere." - from "Moderation and Free Speech Online"

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #81

, the comment below is posted partly in response to a comment you made on this topic and related issues. For a number of reasons, I would not post the below comment in the thread in which your comment appeared, but friend to friend, and as fellow LinkedIn veterans, I'd be pleased to have you review the below comment. My very best to you. And cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #80

There are some posts popping up about censorship, which to my mind distort the issue as it pertains to beBee and tools for moderating hives posts. I cannot speak for anyone else, but personally, I have never suggested, nor implied anything that would "... dictate how a platform functions for millions of people..." My wife is an art-school trained photographer, who often uses manual settings on our digital camera. I am a photographic moron who uses a digital on a fully-automatic setting. Each of us exercises a completely different level of control when taking photos. But each of us uses the SAME CAMERA as the other. I believe that in order to properly run and nurture the growth of profession- and industry-specific hives, a core of moderation tools need to be available for OPTIONAL use by hive owners and managers. But it, in no way follows from this, that I believe or say everyone has to make use of those tools. It is interesting that the reverse is not true of those who, for whatever reasons, oppose the use of those tools. For the position of such opponents of having such tools available for optional use is that NOBODY should be able to use them. It seems to me that is, in fact, to want to "...dictate how a platform functions for millions of people..." Cont Pt II...

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #79

Part II -- Beyond that, moderation is not censorship. Censorship is constituted by acts that prevent people from expressing their thoughts and opinions. However, nowhere in U.S. Constitutional law or elsewhere in the world is it argued that people are entitled or guaranteed the opportunity to express themselves in EVERY venue imaginable, without exception. I would like to publish an editorial about POTUS on Fox Network News-- but I am not allowed to. Is that censorship? No. Because I can publish it in other places, beBee, LinkedIn, Facebook, and even on my own websites. If the government or others took measures to prevent me from publishing on these or every other venue, would that be censorship? Yes, most assuredly. Over several years on social media, I've adopted a policy of not commenting critically on the posts of others, unless I already know they welcome critical engagement. And I try to follow that policy most of the time. (I admit to very occasionally posting a critical comment when I read a post about which I feel particularly strongly. Most of the time, however, if I feel the need to take issue with an idea (rarely, if ever a person), I write and publish an independent post.Of course, sometimes people who believe my post targets them or their ideas will comment in the discussion thread of my posts. In which case, I feel free to answer them in that thread on my post. Why would I not? Cont Pt III...

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #78

Part III -- As to having "... the ability to delete other peoples comments ...", I've personally never advocated that. Indeed, that is one of the drawbacks I've pointed out with respect to the "reporting" function. Namely, that it immediately deletes (if only pending adjudication) a comment and is thus subject to serious abuse and use as a tool of suppression by disruption. Yet I am in favor of having the ability to delete unwanted comments FROM ONE'S OWN POSTS. And to have the ability via a true blocking or other function to prevent a serial harasser from continuing the kind of scurrilous campaign to which for years I have been subjected -- a campaign composed entirely of falsehoods, libels, innuendo, half-truths, and ad hominem attacks. Why are some people so worried about being prevented from making comments on the posts of others, when such prohibition occurs solely at the election of the author of the post involved? What does it matter to any given person if I block that person from commenting on one or even all of my posts? Or even from posting and commenting in a Hive that I may create, own, and manage? After all, I am only one person in some 13 million, hopefully soon to be only one person in 30 million. I suspect the answer is such people are fearful that they will be blocked by a great many others and so be generally ostracized on the platform if people are given the option and the chance to do so. To reiterate, I am not talking here about any REQUIREMENT to use deletion and blocking OPTIONS. I am only speaking of having these tools available for optional use by those who feel them necessary. I am personally less comfortable with assigning the responsibilities of censorship to platform ownership and management, that with letting each member of the audience decide for him- or herself. Cheers!

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #77

Hooves, Graves and Froot Loops :)

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #76

#126
Robert Bacal :) Cute Milos (not so clever, but always funny)

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #75

#124
You are most welcome Robert Bacal. Yes, you make a breakthrough I am "cute", "funny" and "clever" at the same time. Please use your sword. I am ready :)

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #74

#120
I am also gender blind when it comes to debate Phil Friedman - the quality of what someone has to say whether you agree with them or not is key, not what they look like, their race, gender or creed.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #73

#119
actually, Claire, the thought never previously occurred to me, as I am prettty much gender-blind -- when it comes to intellectual exchange. :-)

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #72

Phil Friedman - I read your posts because I enjoy them and didn't notice that there were a lot more comments from males than females until it was pointed out to me. As I said earlier I think a lot of people are nervous about commenting in general and more so when the debate sometimes gets heated.....

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #71

#110
Robert Bacall - thank you for removing your comment. As far as the other article was concerned, I actually thought it was about someone else when I read it, not the person it turned out to be. Yet again the article was well written and I thought at the time it was fair. However a lot of the commentary and debate sparked by this article was not.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #70

#111
Kudos Robert Bacal! This is a shining example of self-awareness and responsibility.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #69

#114
Phil, I don't have anything new to say. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #68

#98
Wayne, in the earlier days of groups, an owner or manager could arrange the group settings to prevent LinkedIn from automatically changing the posting permissions of members of the group. Thus, moderation decisions would be completely local. And a manager in one group could not trigger moderation in another group, under these settings. I personally deplored SWAM.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #67

#99
Thank you, Milos, for saying so. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #66

#103
Thank you, Claire, for reading and the very kind words. Interesting that you do not perceive a gender gap on my posts. Cheers!

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #65

Robert - referring to body parts or any one else's body parts in the way that you did is offensive not satire. This post by Phil Friedman is very well written and informative.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #64

#104
Thank you, Claire, for speaking out. I wish that more of those who PM me about this problem would speak out as courageously as you do. The problem might then actually be resolved.

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #63

Thanks Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee !

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #62

#104
Claire \ud83d\udc1d Cardwell sorry for the inconvenience. In the next platform the owner will be able to remove any comment from his buzzes. Thanks for your patience! Coming soon !

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #61

Isn't there a way that comment no 64 can be removed from the stream? I found it highly offensive and totally unnecessary. Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #60

Phil Friedman - great buzz as always, thanks for tagging me. Have shared it.... One thing I didn't like about the way that LinkedIn's groups were set up is that I had to manually go into each group to see the discussions, they didn't pop up in my feed.... Also I've noticed that a lot of them have been taken over by fortune tellers and get rich quick ponzi scammers....

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #59

John Vaughan - great to see you back!

Claire L Cardwell

Claire L Cardwell

4 years ago #58

#71
Jim Murray's posts. I found the reference to Phil waving his tool around highly offensive. As to the gender gap - what a load of nonsense. I think that many people have been intimidated by the noxious spleen that this person metes out and are afraid of getting the same treatment.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #57

#97
I fully agree with you Phil Friedman.

Wayne Yoshida

Wayne Yoshida

4 years ago #56

#95
Totally agree, Phil. As you mentioned with the Car and Driver example. If I am in the Car and Driver space, I do not want to see anything about BBQ-ing, even if that topic interests me. It must be relevant to the entire group. Could be a great reason the button is called "Relevant" and not "Like" - or maybe just coincidence. . . BTW, I have been hit by the SWAM infraction, more than once. Seems some moderator thought my posts were "promotions" when they were really, truly "news" and posted the same item in multiple - but totally related and similar Groups. It took only one moderator to do that on his Group, and it permeated to all of my Groups. Maybe a glitch or a bug but still - Sheesh.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #55

#94
Precisely, Wayne. I would only add that most of the tools and group managerial capabilities of which I speak here WERE, in fact, available to group owners and managers when LI Groups were first introduced. It was when a number of groups flourished to such a degree, with memberships in excess of 100,000, that LI appeared to consider them an internal threat (i.e., an avenue for distribution independent and outside of the algorithmic control of LI ... and moved to undermine that which had been so successful. My point here is that the nurturing of successful profession- and industry-oriented hives (groups) is something that can be pursued by beBee to its own advantage in building general membership. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #54

#94
Precisely, Wayne. I would only add that most of the tools and group managerial capabilities of which I speak here WERE

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #53

#92
It's ironic, Wayne, that LI's defective settings defaults generated the very notifications overload and spam that LI later used as a rationalization for choking down notifications of authors' posts and notifications to group members of group discussion activity. Beyond that, it's my experience that professionals and industry people, who join profession- or industry-specific groups or hives, want to be able to follow useful discussions, but not be bombarded with unrelated trivia. What is your take on that?

Wayne Yoshida

Wayne Yoshida

4 years ago #52

Uh, back to commenting on Phil's original post -- LinkedIn Groups have changed over the past bunch of months. It used to be a great way to find others with similar interests and to have discussions about topics relevant to the Group. And to connect with those members directly, adding new connections via Groups. (Something in common, which LinkedIn viewed as a criteria for reaching out to connect.) Trouble is, it became a great mechanism for spammers, easy to post junk to thousands with just a boink of a button. LI's reactions are the changes we see now. Maybe a knee-jerk reaction, combined with the requirement to increase revenue - or maybe a quick and dirty change to the interface - and "close that issue" -- and a way to prioritize development on the New LinkedIn business model. In any case - some of Phil's suggestions are easy to implement, and very valuable - the ability to "pin to top" for example, is available on LinkedIn Company Pages. (Which have also changed, I won't go there now.) As far as what we see from "over there" and the posts about how so many dislike the changes, this does present beBee a unique opportunity to observe and learn - and implement - corrections and improvements to the Hive function. The ability to sort and find specific topics in an archive will be most useful, since I resort to using Google to search for a favorite topic by a certain Bee. Many posts fall into a category that will never expire, they are not limited by time or a passing fad. I'd love to find a way to search for those "life lessons" types of topics. As the number of great posts continues - the search/filter/find functions will become extremely important.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #51

This is a perfect example, Lada \ud83c\udfe1 Prkic, of why tools for moderating professional and business hives (groups) are so important. Would the producers at CNN of a televised "town hall meeting" with, say, U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders be considered "un-social" or unduly restrictive if they did not allow, during the call-in portion of the program, two people from Bismark, North Dakota to enter the conversation and begin conversing with one another about last week's Little League baseball game? It seems to be beyond the comprehension of some people that not every discussion thread is a general Kaffee Klatch where users gather to talk at random about whatever comes to their minds. For instance, you, Claire \ud83d\udc1d Cardwell, and I are discussing 3D-printed house structures on one of Claire's posts. And that conversation would not be advanced by others who interrupted with private conversations about some unrelated topic -- however, social that conversation might be. Indeed, if discussions about engineering and architecture were continually interrupted in that way in a professional hive, most serious professionals would drop from the group. I know I would. Therefore, I submit, that if you want to build interest in serious profession- and industry-oriented hives (groups), you need to have the tools to moderate the traffic in those hives to exclude excessively disruptive and diversionary comments and postings.

Wayne Yoshida

Wayne Yoshida

4 years ago #50

#51
Joyce - There are settings for LinkedIn Group notifications (gear icon). Check those carefully - they can become tremendous spam generators if you are not careful. Set the notifications to - say - batch them and send once a week or - never send notifications via e-mail. One defective feature of LI's Groups is how they are arranged. I set the order of groups alphabetically and yet they do not display that way. Not on LI's priority list of bugs to fix, it's been that way for years.

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #49

#75
John Vaughan, I will always appreciate cheerfulness and fun from you :) Kindness too. C'mon, let's do it! It is all about the change.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #48

#86
John, I did not take "umbrage" at anything. But as much as I enjoy jousting with you, I don't see any value in diverting into a discussion of the merits of modesty on social media. ("...my well-founded self-regard re my ability ... -- JV) It's one of those things that one either understands or doesn't. As to why you? I guess I am using you as a stalking horse, becauseIrefuse to enter into discussion with someone (obviously, not you) who seeks at every to hijack this discussion thread for his personal purposes, which are clearly not related to a discussion of the issues raised in this post. I trust that clarifies the matter, and wish you well. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #47

#86
John, I did not take "umbrage" at anything, except perhaps the tendency (not necessarily yours) to attempt to hijack this discussion thread for personal purposes not related to a discussion of the issues raised in this post. As much as I enjoy jousting with you, I don't see any value of diverting into a discussion of the merits of modesty versus immodesty on social media. ("...my well-founded self-regard re my ability ... -- JV) It's one of those things that one either understands or doesn't. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #46

#79
Oh poppycock, John. If there is a gender split in the comments threads of my posts, it is of no concern to beBee -- unless you presume 1) that my posts are primary in carrying the general level of engagement on beBee, and 2) that the comment thread of every post is only a branch of some over-reaching mass conversation on beBee. Both of these premises are, of course, just as false as the claim that there is a gender split on my posts. If anything, some of the "gentler souls" on beBee avoid discussions on some of my posts because of a couple of trolls who haunt the conversations. The same trolls who would like to hang on me the damage they, in fact, do to the environment here on beBee. Be well. I will look for you on LinkedIn.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #45

#70
Lada> "But, there are also large professional hives where the problem is a lack of interest and very low activity, not inappropriate posts or disruptive commenters. Such hives need more members who are active participants in posting and commenting... How to manage such a hive?" Growing a group or hive requires, in my limited experience, pro-active management and discussion moderation. The group needs to be rigorously filtered for relevant content. And the manager(s) need to follow many of the discussions and stand ready to step in to re-prime the conversation if it flags. Managers also need to intervene to prevent trolls and other disrupters from chasing members away. Before LI gutted the tool chest of group owners and managers, we did a pretty decent job of this in "The Port Royal Group for Yacht Builders, Buyers& Owners" and in the small group for serious writers, "Writers4Writers" (https://www.linkedin.com/groups/8139602). After LI took away most of our tools for moderation and control of group membership, not so much. Partly because it became so much work and required so much time. That is why, if beBee wants to see serious growth in Hives, it needs to carefully consider the tools it provides to hive owners and managers. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #44

#70
Lada > "The “honour” system works well because out of more than 100 members, less than 5 is active who all follow the hive’s guideline. As far as I can see, in your groups is pretty much the same situation." Lada, the questions of moderation in groups do not arise when there are only a few members. In the main, because the group is not attractive to trolls and promoters who are seeking attention. I have no doubt that, in a hive with 100 members, only five of whom are active, the guidelines would be, more or less, followed. It is when a hive or group is large that it becomes attractive to disrupters. For example, the beBee hive "Engineers and Technicians" has 258,000 members, and as I scan the posts, I estimate only about 50% actually have to do with engineering and related technology. Cont. Pt II...

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #43

Lada - Pt. II -- As to the beBee hives I own and manage, they are generally clear of posts that do not meet the guidelines which have been explicitly stated precisely because I periodically delete and/or reclassify posts that don't belong in the hive. Which is not generally a burden because they are relatively small. But on LinkedIn, my "Port Royal Group for Yacht Builders, Buyers & Owners" (https://www.linkedin.com/groups/4537627) at one time had more than 1K members (mostly industry professionals) and it was quite a lot of work to keep it free of posts about get-rich-quick schemes, payday loan offers, and ads from mediums and fortune tellers. And that was when it was so important to be able to block repetitive offenders from posting to the group, period. I also co-manage a shipbuilding industry group on LinkedIn with more than 30,000 members, and the situation is that much more difficult. And the moderation tools that much more important, if the group is to be run as other than a full-time job. I am not talking here in this post about hives or groups with 100 or so members, but about those with thousands of members. I'll address your question about generating more interest separately. Cheers!

Jim Murray

Jim Murray

4 years ago #42

#64
If it's any consolation, Robert. I would ban you too along with several other people I know. Your attempts at bullying Phil over the years have gotten really old, and frankly it doesn't appear that you do much more than that. It feels very much like a compulsion. The other issue is that Phil has, long ago, decided that he would pay no attention to you. But you don't get it. Sounds like a compound compulsion. Every comment you make is coloured by your seeming disdain for Phil, who admittedly is an acquired taste, but one which thousands of people here have acquired. My suggestion to you is to stop whipping the dead horse that is only damaging your brand and move on to something more positive than old grudges that don't really amount to shit.

Lada 🏡 Prkic

Lada 🏡 Prkic

4 years ago #41

#42
Phil, I forgot to ask you about your experience on beBee, since you are the administrator and owner of several groups here. I am the owner of two groups and one of them is related to engineering. The “honour” system works well because out of more than 100 members, less than 5 is active who all follow the hive’s guideline. As far as I can see, in your groups is pretty much the same situation. So, as you said, we talk about content moderation and management tools in large professional hives, such as the Engineers and Technicians hive. But, there are also large professional hives where the problem is a lack of interest and very low activity, not inappropriate posts or disruptive commenters. Such hives need more members who are active participants in posting and commenting. How to manage such a hive?

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #40

#67
Javier, I think it safe to say that we are all looking forward to the roll out of the next iteration of beBee. I know that I personally am very high on beBee's potential to solidify a position among the ranks of major social media platforms. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #39

#66
Chas, I understand the desire for simplicity. However, it seems to me very much like using a modern digital camera. You can opt to use the pre-set automated program if you so chose. But others have the option of using manual settings if they do choose. Does it bother you, or even affect you if some people choose to use some manual setting to fine tune their experience? My point is simply this: Managing a large profession- or industry- oriented hive takes work. A lot of it. And it is essential to have available certain tools that eliminate having, as a hive manager or owner, to deal over and over again with posters and disruptive commenters who refuse to follow the hive's guidelines. This post is not about moderation tools as such, but about whether beBee should or even wants to encourage the development and growth of professional, business, and industry oriented hives (groups). I personally believe it is one avenue to accelerated growth, but that is my POV. Cheers!

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #38

Chas \u270c\ufe0f Wyatt you hit the nail ! Simplicity is the great diffrenciator. Anyway beBee is adding more fetaures to remove comments from your posts, block users, and filter content. I am really excited about the next platform ! Thanks everyone for your patience ! Have a great weekend !!! Buzz on !!!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #37

And for those who may have missed the first post in this beBee vs beBee series -- the post which ran to 14.8 K views, 355 comments, and 91 relevants -- here is the link: https://www.bebee.com/producer/@friedman-phil/affinity-networking-is-on-the-line

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #36

I would like to thank you all for contributing to the conversation, nowithstanding that it's strayed way off topic. But I would like to reiterate what I see as the core question(s): Does the imminent demise of groups on LinkedIn present an opportunity for growth to beBee? And if so, what, if any restructuring of Hives would have to take place in order to take advantage of that opportunity?

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #35

#54
No problem John Vaughan This is international network with members from all around the world that is owned by dear friends from Spain. My choice of lifestyle is kindness. Thank you for your clarification. It is interesting to note that according to British English (Cambridge Learner’s Dictionary - © Cambridge University Press) definition for "partisan" (adjective) is "showing support for a particular political system or leader". (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/learner-english/partisan_1). According to Collins English dictionary definition for "partisan" (adjective) is "Someone who is partisan strongly supports a particular person or cause, often without thinking carefully about the matter." Example: He is clearly too partisan to be a referee." (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/partisan) This indicates incompetence too. I had an English teacher who studied English language and literature at University of Cambridge (UK). Also for more details about "partisan" usage in American English and partisan word choice, including the top 10 negative terms following partisan adjectives. please check: 1. "What are the most common American political insults?" by Katherine Connor Martin - Head of Content Creation at Oxford Dictionaries at blog.oxforddictionaries.com (http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2014/11/political-insults/) Therefore, nothing, "beBee" here at all, it's my personal attitude, as always. Cheers and have fun.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #34

#57
Sandra, do not waste your time. The commenter whom you question deals only in vagaries, half-truths, and spurious innuendo. Oh yes, and "alternative facts".

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #33

#53
John Vaughan > "... denying a person the ability to publish is tantamount to (i.e. "equivalent to") censorship. Wordsmith it, if you must. It's your thread..." No, John, it is not "wordsmithing", John. The fact is that NBC, CBS, CNN, the NYT, the Chicago Tribune, and dozens of other private, for-profit outlets deny me daily the ability to publish on their platforms. Yet, I seriously doubt that a suit to seek an order to compel, based on the 1st Amendment, would be successful in changing that. Because it is not censorship. Using goons to stop me from handing out leaflets on the streets of, say, Chicago, would indeed be an instance of censorship (not to mention assault). The point is that no private organization is required by law to provide you with a platform to speak. I am not arguing the ethical issue, and certainly, as I said repeatedly and openly on beBee (in contrast to some Johnny-come-lately hangers-on who are now grabbing at your coat tails) I neither supported nor approved of the manner in which you were treated. And further, that I would personally prefer to see all of your comments in the infamous thread(s) fully restored. But that does not make what transpired censorship by any defendable definition. As to cheap shots being fun, I think you demonstrated that amply during the exchanges in question. Cheers!

Milos Djukic

Milos Djukic

4 years ago #32

#40
#48 Dear John Vaughan, I would be cautious when using the term: "partisan hysteria": in order to describe "partisan jerks on beBee (often - sadly - "ambassadors')". This term - partisan has two meanings that are equally valid outside the U.S. One meaning is "descriptive" and the other is military and often associated outside the U.S with a communist party and communist regimes in the world. That is for me unacceptable labeling of beBee members and ambassadors. In addition, according to urbandictionary.com., the top two definitions for term: "Jerks" are "Selfish, manipulative bastards who see women as little more then sexual conquests to brag about to their buddies or mere objects that are there for their personal pleasure" and "An idiot or stupid person. An insensitive, selfish, ignorant, cocky person who is inconsiderate and does stupid things." (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jerk) Mening - "partisan": "partisan, noun 1. An adherent or supporter of a person, group, party, or cause, especially a person who shows a biased, emotional allegiance. 2. Military. a member of a party of light or irregular troops engaged in harassing an enemy, especially a member of a guerrilla band engaged in fighting or sabotage against an occupying army." - from dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/partisan) "The Yugoslav Partisans or the National Liberation Army, officially the National Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia, was Europe's most effective anti-Axis resistance movement during World War II, often compared to the Polish resistance movement, albeit the latter was a mostly non-communist autonomous movement. - from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Partisans

Joyce 🐝 Bowen Brand Ambassador @ beBee

I just started taking advantage of LI las October. I was new to groups. I joined some--too many perhaps. But now what I'm getting for email notifications from LI groups looks more like SPAM. I'm going to cut down on my groups and keep the important ones. Thanks for this heads up, Phil.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #30

#48
John, my explanation of local moderation in LI groups was by way of explaining that it is not necessarily equivalent to censorship. Neither was SWAM-ing on LinkedIn -- although it was by definition (and structure) arbitrary and unthinking. For example, you could be SWAM'd for posting the same piece into multiple groups simultaneously, notwithstanding the fact that posted instructions and provided a specific tool for doing so. There were also suspicions circulated at the time among some group owners that other owners had found ways to trigger a SWAM to someone as a global retaliation for a perceived local infraction. But I was never able to confirm this. Beyond that, you know that I have been active in defense of critical comment, and often publicly critical of those who try to shut down dissent by labeling it "negative". However, although there may be a minor tiff here and there, I reject the notion there is anything even remotely resembling systematic censorship occurring on beBee. Perhaps, I am simply too pig-headed to notice, but I have not felt constricted by beBee ownership or management, indeed quite the opposite, when voicing my sometimes less-than-popular opinions. As to it's having "... been 9+ months of providing clear-headed analysis of content, structure, behavior, etc. without much actual engagement (beyond partisan hysteria) on the very real issues that plague bB ...", I am glad that you continue to hold a high opinion of your opinion, in spite of the "partisan hysteria" to the contrary. And I would simply point out that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion -- as long as he or she doesn't try to squelch the expression of someone else's opinion. I mentioned you in the piece because I respect many of your expressed opinions. And I continue to stand by that judgment. You are always welcome in a thread on my posts. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #29

#46
Mike, thank you for commenting. Can't really tell if you read the piece, which is NOT about whether beBee or LinkedIn is the better platform,.Nor is it about whether you can post in LI groups or not. This piece is about the upcoming demise of groups on LI, and the opportunity I believe that happening opens up for beBee. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #28

#43
Thanks, Jerry, for reading and for the kind words. Cheers!

Javier 🐝 CR

Javier 🐝 CR

4 years ago #27

#43
Jerry Fletcher a new great platform coming soon ! 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

Jerry Fletcher

Jerry Fletcher

4 years ago #26

Phil, I'm impressed with your experience in this area. My question is for Juan and Javier: What have you got in mind?

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #25

#39
Lada> "It seems to me that managing and moderating a group, according mentioned principles, would require too much time." Lada, having tools and capabilities available does not mean one has to use them. If you own a hive and do not want to expend that effort, you would (on my view) be free not to do so. I believe that most hives should be filtered so that only posts appropriate to their respective mission statements get published in them. But that does NOT mean I want to require everyone to do so. If you own a hive and you are happy to have it run on the "honor" system, that is your prerogative. When I first proposed making sure, for example, that cooking pieces did not get into hives nominally dedicated to architecture, I was told by many that such would be too restrictive. My answer was (and is) that there are plenty of "general" hives that are unrestricted except perhaps for language, and so there is ample opportunity to post in an eclectic environment, should one desire to do so. What I have found is that, for example, serious engineers who want to discuss engineering issues don't want to be harassed by people without the first clue about Strength of Materials. And they don't generally want to receive notices about articles posted on Fried Ice Cream. And when they do, they will join a cooking hive. In my view, those who enjoy chaos, are welcome to continue doing so. I just don't understand why they want to deny me the opportunity to operate an organized hive for a specific group of professionals or industry people. Thank you for joining the conversation. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #24

#40
John, I think you're conflating Site Wide Automatic Moderation (SWAM) with the manual local moderation tools that were available originally to LinkedIn group owners and managers. The local tools enabled various forms of moderation to be employed. For example, in my industry-specific group, although it was "public" and all LI members could read the posts and comments there, only members of the group were allowed to post or comment in the group's discussions. Moreover, new members were subject to default moderation, that is, their posts went into a holding queue for pre-review as to topic-conformity to the group's posting guidelines. Once a member established him- or herself as appropriately self-regulating, he or she would be allowed to post without moderation. Purely commercial promotional postings were not allowed (except on the original "promotions" tab) and repeated offenders would be warned and eventually simply blocked from the group. Same for those who could not maintain a reasonable level of decorum. These were all stated rules of the group. Some people might not like it, but tough. It was my group, founded by me, and managed by me and my team of associate managers. It took a lot of work, so if you didn't like the rules you were free to go elsewhere. And BTW, that, my friends, was NOT censorship. It's not censorship if Car & Driver magazine refuses to run articles on cooking by authors who simply figure it would be great to publish a piece in C&D. Oh, and for the record, I arranged the moderation settings in my groups to block LinkedIn from automatically changing the posting permissions for members of my groups in my groups. In other words, in my groups all moderation decisions were local. Cheers!

Lada 🏡 Prkic

Lada 🏡 Prkic

4 years ago #23

#14
Phil, thanks for tagging me. I have no experience in managing or moderating LinkedIn groups. Your information about tools afforded to LI group owner and managers for content moderation and interaction with members, I found very useful. It seems to me that managing and moderating a group, according mentioned principles, would require too much time. Also, the current engagement in existing profession groups on beBee does not provide much basis for optimism, regardless the future tools for moderation. But still, beBee team should definitely try to implement those principles (I am not quite sure about membership by approval). As you said, there is nothing wrong in copying LI model on beBee. Perhaps this new group/hive model could attract more people from LinkedIn to beBee and finally create an environment of high engagement. For example, the current situation in one hive linked to my profession is that the post about poor quality construction received only 2 ‘relevants’, without any comment. The same post on LI got hundreds of likes, comments and shares, because there is a large, but also engaging construction community. Besides the tolls for moderating groups, it should also be more members who are willing to interact in such profession and industry-specific groups.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #22

#36
You may not yet find VCs who understand this, Larry, but eventually they will. When they see that the social networking side of social media can lead to stable, organic growth and, of course, substantial profits. Thank you for reading and joining the conversation. Cheers!

Larry Boyer, 🐝 Brand Ambassador

Quite interesting and not surprising about the true purpose of LinkedIn. As with many IT products these days the value is in the data you collect not the mechanism you are using to collect it. If Juan Imaz want to keep beBee a social platform, as opposed to a means to collect and monetize data the issue will be where to find investors aligned with that mission. Can you even find them in Silicon Valley? The good news for beBee is that it's growing and hitting it's stride right when other social platforms are missing the mark with their evolution. beBee can learn lessons from them, and like a jockey in a horse race come from behind and shoot ahead of the pack.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #20

Thank you all for contributing to the conversation. It's interesting, as well, that we see in this thread a nearly perfect illustration of why professional and industry oriented hives (groups) need moderation tools in order to thrive, namely, because of the possibility of a repetitive trollish commenter who posts over and over again the same distorted lies (alternate news?) attaching himself to a group and driving away genuine and serious professionals and business people, even when they are not the targets and they clearly do their best just to ignore the disruption -- which actually constitutes an attack on everyone, as well as a total disregard for the rights of others. When moderation and blocking tools are available, the problem, for the most part, goes away. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #19

#29
John, I understand your expressed point of view. However, I hold to the belief that the superior solution is a broad-based platform such as beBee has the potential to become, which is set up properly to support the growth and maintenance of genuinely profession- and industry-oriented groups. There was initially a potential for that on LinkedIn, which was squandered. I am personally hoping that beBee can and will step into the breach. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #18

#27
Yes, Jim, it becomes so boring and tiresome, with never an iota of substantive contribution. But Javier \ud83d\udc1d beBee have been promising to soon introduce a "blocking" function, which should solve the problem. BTW, does anyone know why occasionally a comment shows up in a thread by "anonymous"?

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #17

#25
Christine, when I first founded "The Port Royal Group for Yacht Builders, Buyers & Owners" on LinkedIn, when you commented in a discussion, you could check a box to receive notifications whenever new comments were posted for that discussion. I personally liked that feature because it allowed one to follow and participate in any serious discussions. And there were a significant number of those in my group, whose membership was composed almost 100% of industry professionals. BTW, I agree with you about the problem of a share creating a new tracking thread. Moreover, that's a problem which goes way back. Cheers!

Jim Murray

Jim Murray

4 years ago #16

Robert Bacal sounds like a broken record. Robert Bacal sounds like a broken record. Robert Bacal sounds like a broken record. Robert Bacal sounds like a broken record. Robert Bacal sounds like a broken record. Robert Bacal sounds like a broken record.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #15

#22
Jim, I believe that Federico \ud83d\udc1d \u00c1lvarez San Mart\u00edn and his crew have been working on that. For now, I think quickest way is to go to a bee's profile. You will see there on the left a line "view blog", that takes you to that author's archive of posts. Hope that helps. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #14

#20
JG, LinkedIn has always been touchy about anyone messing with all the fakes in the user base. But I think LI likes even less the independence of large strong groups such as yours. Consider, if you will, migrating your group to beBee. And I commit to helping. We can even talk to the Two-Jays about what you as the owner of a major industry-specific group fell you need in the way of support. PM me if you like. Cheers! -- PS - How is the Kuwait Yacht Show going?

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #13

#18
Thank you, Christine, for joining the conversation. When you mention issues of access, do. you mean for posting? For joining? For reading or commenting? As well, how far back are you going? My industry-specific group goes back to 2005, and it ran quite smoothly.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #12

#10
Ah Chas, thank you for reading and commenting. I would, however, be interested in knowing what it is specificslly you like about hives vs LI groups (old or new)... although I do value your vote. Pleased to have you join the conversation.

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #11

#6
Lisa, you are NOT limited to belonging to only three hives. You are only prevented from sharing a given post to more than three. As to mentoring, I am sure there are many on beBee who would be willing. I am a not, however, the best person to ask about that because... I inevitably think of Groucho Marx's line about clubs. I am sure that you will receive help now that you've asked. There are a lot of kindband decent people on beBee. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #10

#5
Thanks, Jim. I expect, though, that this point of view will be somewhat too "activist" for some in beBee. However, should keep in mind that the needs of a profession- or industry- specific hive or group are different from those of one based on leisure-interest affinity. What say you Lada \ud83c\udfe1 Prkic?

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #9

#4
David, historically there has always been a huge degree of denial by LI user's. And when some of us (including you) warned of developing problems, we were greeted with "love it or leave" responses from many users who wanted to believe the LI party-line. In that respect, things have changed a bit, but ... too little, too late. Thanks and cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #8

#7
thank you, Praveen, for joining the conversation. You make some excellent points. However, please understand that I am talking about profession- and industry-specific hives and groups, for which the management needs are very different than for hives relating to personal interests. Cheers!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #7

#9
Yes, Pascal, your reaction is consistent with that of the experienced group owners and managers I know. Without the ability to moderate and otherwise control traffic and behavior, a large group degenerates into chaos. And that interferes with seriös discussion and chases professionals and business people away. Cheers!

Pascal Derrien

Pascal Derrien

4 years ago #6

I have been running a 23 000 members group but I have lost 400 members in the last 12 months, the groups on LI have become an empty shell the activity and exchange is at abare minimum and fair to say i have also stopped investing too much of my time in it. An oportunity I would say for beBee but the current Hive structure is not fit for that purpose at the moment :-)

Jim Murray

Jim Murray

4 years ago #5

Whoa. good stuff amigo. I will repost the shit out of this.

David B. Grinberg

David B. Grinberg

4 years ago #4

Thanks for the "shout out" Phil. You not only hit the proverbial nail on the head, but cracked the wall with the potency of this post. Moreover, any mention from you is a good mention, even if I do fall under the "fruit loops" category (lol). Lastly, that hangman's noose image really gave me a good belly laugh, very witty and clever (as usual for you). May I suggest posting the image on LI (although you might get arrested by the PC police)? Still, it strikes me as too good not to share elsewhere , a viral sensation indeed. I wonder how many "Likes" it would get on LI? If not there, a tweet perhaps? Very nice, Phil!

David B. Grinberg

David B. Grinberg

4 years ago #3

Thanks for the "shout out" Phil. You not only hit the proverbial nail on the head, but cracked the wall with the potency of this post. Moreover, any mention from you is a good mention, even if I do fall under the "fruit loops" category (lol). Lastly, that hangman's noose image really gave me a good belly laugh, very witty and clever (as usual for you). May I suggest posting the image on LI (although you might arrested by the PC police)? Still, it strike me as too good not to share it elsewhere , a viral sensation indeed. I wonder how many "Likes" it would get on LI? If not there, a tweet perhaps? Very nice, Phil!

David B. Grinberg

David B. Grinberg

4 years ago #2

Thanks for the "shout out" Phil. Any mention from you is a good mention, even if I do fall under the "fruit loops" category (lol). That's hangman's noose image really gave me a good belly laugh, very witty and clever (as usual for you). May I suggest posting the image on LI? It's just too good to pass up, a viral sensation indeed. I wonder how many "Likes" it would get? Very nice, Phil!

Phil Friedman

Phil Friedman

4 years ago #1

FYI- Milos Djukic.